Can we really afford to leave the EC

[dls]

We are constantly told that we must be part if the EC/EU to take advantage of the common market aspects of the behemoth.

I know that the theory is that we will lose out through not being part of these markets, but surely that is very old news. World trade rules impose restrictions on petty border type rules, and, in the long run, we will do better if and only if we manufacture and serve better.

I know I must be wrong, but i cannot actually see how.

[zebedee]

Are you and Alex morphing? Will you be raising racial taboos next?

Of course we could leave the EC and survive well. Self-belief and national resolve is what it takes. Don't forget that the EC needs our market to export to every bit as much as we need theirs. Loss of inward investment can be compensated for too. Who wants all these foreign companies and foreign state interests owning us anyway? Arab money will still flow here because London isn't Germany or France. They love Kensington and Mayfair too much.

We have an anglophone Commonwealth to rebuild which also offers huge potential for two-way international development. The Europeans dislike us but so what? They like our money which has stayed relatively strong to theirs and they are all money-grubbers par excellence.

[Hairyloon]

in the long run, we will do better if and only if we manufacture and serve better.

We're screwed then.

[Smouldering Stoat]

I think the only thing that can be said with any certainty, is that nothing can be said with any certainty at all.

It is true that Europhiles have not, in the past, been entirely straightforward about where the European project is going. It was sold to the British people as the Common Market, just a free trade area, without too much mention of where it might end up. That has undoubtedly led to suspicion and fear about what will happen in the future, and given some currency to the allegations of UKIP and others that the we're the victims of some kind of vast conspiracy emanating from Brussels. Equally, it's probably true that some of the apocalyptic prophesies from Europhiles about the consequences of leaving the EU are to say the least somewhat exaggerated.

But. The Eurosceptics would have us believe that leaving the EU will lead us into the sunny uplands where we will be able to have free trade agreements with the rest of Europe, enjoying many of the benefits of the EU, while not having to contribute or obey the rules which are imposed upon the rest. They point to Norway and Switzerland as being countries that enjoy such a relationship. That's not entirely honest, either. Norway has a kind of free-trade relationship with the EU. They have to obey all of the rules but, while they have the right to be consulted, they don't really have a say in how those rules are formulated. And they still have to pay. It's been likened to owning a golden fax machine from which spews forth a constant stream of rules to be obeyed. Norway has this kind of relationship because it is still hoped, in due course, that they will become full EU members.

Switzerland has a looser kind of relationship, particularly in financial services, but since they serve as a place for Europe's tax evaders to stash their wealth it's not exactly popular. It survives mostly because the UK protects them.

So it is unlikely that we would be able to enter into the same kind of agreement which either of those two countries has. We need to export to Europe more than they need our exports and, while world trade is a great deal more free than it was when the Treaty of Rome was signed, we shouldn't kid ourselves that the EU can't put barriers in our way. Even having to clear customs is a burden exporters could do without.

UKIP and others suggest that we'll be free 'go our own way' and trade with the rest of the world on our own terms. It is unclear to me what this actually means in practice. You may well be right that we should manufacture and serve better. How does membership of the EU stop us from doing that now? The Prime Minister points to the Working Time Directive and to its - supposedly - unintended consequences on the training of junior doctors. But workers can opt out of the Directive anyway - I have - and, it being the case that people who are fatigued make bad decisions - I think I'd rather be treated by a Doctor who's had a decent night's sleep.

[Smouldering Stoat]

Are you and Alex morphing? Will you be raising racial taboos next?

Of course we could leave the EC and survive well.

There's no 'of course' about it. Be honest, and admit it would be a huge step into the dark.

Self-belief and national resolve is what it takes.

What do you actually mean by that?

Don't forget that the EC needs our market to export to every bit as much as we need theirs.

Really? You don't understand the nature of selling. Unless you have a monopoly, power always lies in the hands of the purchaser. Name one thing we make that can't be bought elsewhere.

Loss of inward investment can be compensated for too.

How much inward investment will be lost? Where will the balance be made up from?

Who wants all these foreign companies and foreign state interests owning us anyway?

The people who work for them.

Arab money will still flow here because London isn't Germany or France.

So, none of them give shit about us being in the EU? Evidence?

They love Kensington and Mayfair too much.

So, we should give up on national belief and self-resolve, and concentrate on the interests of some rich foreigners and the parts of London they've bought. Make your mind up, man.

We have an anglophone Commonwealth to rebuild which also offers huge potential for two-way international development.

Could you possibly point me to the EU rules which forbid us from trading with the Commonwealth (by the way, most of them don't speak English). No? Thought not.

The Europeans dislike us but so what?

I hate to break this to you, and I understand that it might be a bit traumatic to find out, but we are European.

They like our money which has stayed relatively strong to theirs and they are all money-grubbers par excellence.

What, all of them?

[cbcbcb]

What are the risks ?

Have we presented the British public with those risks , in order for them to vote ?


What are the objectives ?

Have we presented the British public with those objectives , in order for them to vote ?



Ohh whait a minute, who are those un elected lot in the EU ? Is this about money ? Or living a better life ?


If the people are not being included, we may as well, flip a coin............


Flip a coin ...? In this age of instant global communication ... Ohh dear... Will it really last whilst people are excluded ?



Back to numero uno

WHAT ARE THE OBJECTIVES ?

[Smouldering Stoat]

I see my hypothesis that Maggie is a Turing machine remains unfalsified.

[Hairyloon]

I see my hypothesis that Maggie is a Turing machine remains unfalsified.

I thought it would be fun to plug a Turing machine into a multi-player online game.
If the chat is secondary to the gameplay, then the distraction of the game would likely make the conversation more convincing...
Meanwhile, back on topic, I think a lot of the reason that many people in the UK want out of Europe is that they think we are strangled by a load of EU regulations, and that we are the only ones bothering to follow them.

The latter may well be just jingoistic paranoia, but I must've told you about my row with the Welsh assembly and their damn fool interpretation of EU regulations: the regs seem a fairly sensible requirement for an "integrated administration and control system" for the delivery of EU funding, and that it must include a computer database.
So rather than have a computer to collate the data held by the computers at the Forestry Commission, the Local Council and the Welsh Assembly and compile it into one database, they create an Integrated Administration and Control office which creates paper forms which need to be filled in in a particular way so that the computer can read them.

So the EU create rules to eliminate red paperwork and the UK use them to create more... I have to wonder how many other things the EU are blamed for when it is our bureaucratic idiots that are at fault.

[cbcbcb]

Any objectives yet ? Anyone ?

Dear lord, where is the mission statement outlines to the millions of Britons on this matter ? Is it lacking in this age of global instant highly educated leaders ? YES ?

Ohh the few, still attempting to control the many ? How quaint !


It's going full circle by golly ! You didn't think nature would steer it any other way did ya ! ?


My monies on the rottweiler with the biggest bite ! Until then, happy politicking !

[diy]

For me its not about in or out its about where the EU is going. Those in the centre see it as an ever more integrated state, with allowances for members to go at a slower or faster pace. They see those that are out of the Euro as those going at a slower pace. They do not accept that those countries can go in a different direction, they see full integration as inevitable. You decide if its fast or slow. Someone needs to re-evaluate the whole ideal. It seems daft to have austerity when the EU spends more and more, it seems all about creating subsidies which best suit your country. Its not about working together for greater good of those in the EU, its about steering the EU to your own states benefit and putting the brakes on another countries success.

my personal prediction is that some of those countries not in the EURO will join the campaign to repatriate powers. There will be enough noise for concessions to be made. If Britain leaves the EU our neighbors with fight to build trade alliances to continue to benefit from trade.

Cameron has been quite smart, there is enough time for the banking crisis to be well and truly over, a good chance recession will be long behind us and plenty of time for the EURO to have another crisis.